Arik

I don't like the line "and those are the times, Doctor, where perhaps I envy you." It just doesn't feel like Spock to be so forthright.

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The writers of this post apologize for you being too stupid to understand it.

Cymro

Edited Version:

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"Let me tell you something about humans, nephew: They're a wonderful, friendly people - as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working.

"But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those friendly, intelligent, wonderful people...will become as nasty and as violent as the most blood-thirsty klingon."

Deslok

Yeah, Spock always had this subtle thing going on that told me that he had to work at being logical whereas full blooded Vulcans found it to be effortless.

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Cymro

OK, it's been changed.

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"Let me tell you something about humans, nephew: They're a wonderful, friendly people - as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working.

"But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those friendly, intelligent, wonderful people...will become as nasty and as violent as the most blood-thirsty klingon."

Deslok

I like it. It feels like Star Trek, but I see stylistic touches that are familiar (TNG) and some that are new.

Regarding the ancient Vulcan religions, what exactly is the canon on that, if any. I always had the impression that the Vulcans tended to be polydeistic. But then again, why would an entire planet of people have only one religion. We on Earth have plenty.

One thing about the idea of aliens on Star Trek bothers me. There's very little mention ever made of differences within an alien society. There were white and black Vulcans and Klingons. I don't think I've ever seen a black Romulan though. But my point is that other species of intelligent life, which basically live under conditions similar to our own as regards being a bipedal creature which lives on a landmass, is that there are bound to be the very same differences among members of the general populace (sp?) as there are here on our world. So, following that line of logic, I'm sure it's safe to say that Vulcans had some very passionate and strange religions from their primative roots. Whatever they are, there would probably be some unifying themes such as there are with the Abrahamic religions, or with the Eastern religions (buddhism, hinduism). I also imagine ancient Vulcan religions to be even more illogical than our own.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that primative Vulcans were probably quite murderous, perhaps even demonic. When Spock was first introduced on television in the 1960s, the network had some concerns about whether he was too evil looking, and they wanted to do away with the pointed ears. But Roddenberry won out and Spock was an instant hit when the show aired. Most interesting to the staff of Star Trek was a particular fascination women had with the Spock character. So, by my assesment, primative Vulcans were also probably quite sexually active. Seven foot tall satyrs (sans hooves) and nymphs (sans wings) in a society where everything was for sale.

Which makes my mind wander briefly whether Surak was from the future mirror universe? But I digress.

I'll be interested to read the whole thing.

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Arik

I like the second one much better.

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Brikar

Great job, Cymro.

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Cymro

That's what I was going for. STV kinda showed that there used to be at least one religion on Vulcan. The reference to many deities is basically saying that Vulcan culture was as diverse as ours, at least before they discovered logic, and it would have been rediculous if I'd said the entire Vulcan race only ever believed in one god. I think Vulcan is the result of their equivalent to Buddhism becoming the dominant religion. A common misconception is that Buddhism is a religion and that Buddha is a god. Buddha was just a normal man who believed that meditation and abandoning desire was the way to acheive enlightenment, and Buddhists follow his teachings, though I think he's been elevated to the status of deity to some extent. But Surak's sort of the Vulcan Buddha, if you know what I mean.

Ironically, I just saw one earlier, he was in the TNG episode with the Pegasus.

Thanks. I was going for that kind of feel, as one of my favourite things in Star Trek has always been the reflective scenes towards the end of an episode (or film). I wanted to work in the "Every cloud has a silver lining" message, because Trek always had a way of being uplifting. It's also a great analogy for Spock and McCoy, because one represents rationality, the other emotion, and basically Kirk's decisions are the result of the balance between them. It can also be interpreted further as Spock acknowledging that he has to play the bad guy.

Also, the best Spock (or even Tuvok) scenes were always the ones where they let down their guard for just a second. ST6's "If I were human, I believe my response would be 'Go to Hell' - if I were human", The touching death scene in TWOK, and I always liked that scene in season 7 Voyager when Neelix is leaving the ship, and Tuvok does a couple of dance steps. Enterprise took it too far with T'Pol though.

Incidentally, I think Tuvok was one of the few things Voyager did right.

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"Let me tell you something about humans, nephew: They're a wonderful, friendly people - as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working.

"But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those friendly, intelligent, wonderful people...will become as nasty and as violent as the most blood-thirsty klingon."

Deslok

My question is this, would Spock raise his eyebrow at McCoy's last comment, or would he remain emotionless? I've seen both done before, and they both tell volumes about the undercurrent of Spock's inner turmoil and tribulations. Even complicated people are very simplistic by nature. Data was an even more simplistic example, but he was different because his existence was that of a synthetic life form living among humans whom he feels compelled to emulate. Spock has two layers of inner dialog going on. He has the basic Vulcan struggle of restraining his savage nature, and then there's his Vulcan/Human struggle, which is pulling him back toward emotion, illogic, and a stronger sense of the alien savagery of humans. On outward appearance, he seems Vulcan, but he obviously is more comfortable with and prefers the company of humans. The McCoy/Spock dialog was always particularly fun. The raised eyebrow seemed to convey a lot of things at once: first that Spock realized that he has just been insulted or had fun poked at him, second is that he has just had a realization or small epiphany that he is recognizing as a truth. These moments of juxtaposed emotional mini-epiphanies and thought processes often brought about Spock displaying a progression of the thoughts expressed in the initial eyebrow-raising banter, that would in turn sometimes cause Dr. McCoy to raise his own eyebrow in a similar circumstance of this himself. Kirk often seemed to be chuckling at the two of them when they'd try to best each other with their thoughts.

Spock and McCoy are both men of science. I'm getting that McCoy might believe in a higher power of some sort, but is content not to illustrate his thoughts with mythological appellations. McCoy also has expressed remnants of human xenophobia of Vulcans at times which he tempers with humor or sarcasm sometimes;

• (Upon learning that he is carrying Spock's katra) "That green-blooded son of a bitch! It's his revenge for all those arguments he lost!"

• "Why you green blooded, inhuman..." (To which Spock replies, "That is correct, Doctor.")

• "Logic! My God, the man's talking about logic! We're talking about universal Armageddon!"

• (Talking to Data) "Don't see no points on your ears boy, but you sound like a Vulcan."

• (Talking to Spock) "Are you out of your Vulcan mind?"

from Wikipedia

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Deslok

The old religions may have continued in terms of the ceremonies involved. They have retained their heritage while maintaining their logic.



BSG? j/k



Or "Devil's advocate"?

T'Pol was a main character who was treated as a secondary character. She was written hastily and without care. There was potential, but the difference is that with Spock, things weren't randomly invented to further along his character. He had basic parameters which he operated under, and then he'd have to filter his existence through that. When Pon Farr was first introduced, it was a revelation about all Vulcans. When they introduced new things about Vulcans on ENT, it often seemed like an unnecessary extension of something about Vulcans that had been modified in order to add further spice to the show. T'Pol and Trip should have never ever been able to connect as lovers, their love for each other should have remained unrequieted. She could and should have been written as coyly Vulcan. With that repressed humor that Spock had. Spock could be mildly sardonic at times. The Vulcan way always seemed a little bit like they relied heavily on language, but communicated things with their weak telepathic abilities. I also think that the telepathic ability didn't present itself until after the doctrine of logic was adopted by all of Vulcan society and several generations had passed. This is all just extrapolation of course, but it is what has always made Star Trek special. It made you think about what was going on inside the character's heads. I say that Vulcan telepathy was weak because I feel that Vulcan to Vulcan verbal communication did not endeavor to explain everything in words, but that distinct impressions were traded between the participants of a conversation, then there's the mind meld which is brutal and dangerous and most certainly unrefined as compared to other telepathic aliens, such as the Okampa (who were potentially quite powerful but were kept prisoners of a sort, in ignorance by The Caretaker).

Even Voyager was a much better show than Enterprise was at the beginning. Voyager started out with more of a Roddenberry-esque edge to it, but descended into a bunch of routine, almost bored attempts at keeping the progression of adventures interesting as the Berman/Braga cartel churned out story ideas using rubber stamps. Enterprise had the reverse going on. By the end of it, it had found its way to being stylistically like a very good hybrid of the sophistication of TNG and the feeling of Star Trek (TOS). But what they had to work with was three prior years of backstory that was convoluted beyond all belief. Actually, ENT started off in a similar fashion as VOY, but the engine died before the end of the first season. I think three or four years into VOY was when Kes left and Seven of Nine appeared. That is the demarcation line for me.

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